Comments on: Java Isn't The Problem http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/ Pragmatic Thoughts On Game Development Fri, 27 Jan 2012 00:53:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: David http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-11429 David Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:49:19 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-11429 I've been self teaching myself how to program in java and use OOP. And I agree that passion is needed to maintain sanity when faced with the the endless trials and errors in getting a single thing to work. In my opinion the fun factor should be a side effect rather than a goal of learning and the achievement of finally getting a facet of a game like a projectile to move can be very rewarding. I totally agree that the way you are learn something can ruin it, it is one reason I zoned out every time one of my teachers in high school started talking. I also agree that it is not java that is the problem, as I'm assured that if they taught with anything else the downfall would still have occurred. Every language has its own quirks and flavors, if Java does not appeal to their tastes and needs then they can just learn a different language as I am doing. I’ve been self teaching myself how to program in java and use OOP. And I agree that passion is needed to maintain sanity when faced with the the endless trials and errors in getting a single thing to work. In my opinion the fun factor should be a side effect rather than a goal of learning and the achievement of finally getting a facet of a game like a projectile to move can be very rewarding.

I totally agree that the way you are learn something can ruin it, it is one reason I zoned out every time one of my teachers in high school started talking. I also agree that it is not java that is the problem, as I’m assured that if they taught with anything else the downfall would still have occurred.

Every language has its own quirks and flavors, if Java does not appeal to their tastes and needs then they can just learn a different language as I am doing.

]]> By: koryuko http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-633 koryuko Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:19:34 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-633 I owe my current job (now) to my interest in learning java before. I must admit, i'm quite a late bloomer. The first programming language i learned in school was pascal, and that was the time i first realized what i wanted .But when i went to college, i lost all that interest. It isn't because how the programming subjects were taught, or how the instructors look like (laughs), but because i didn't spend most of my time hoaning my interest and so it died.At the later part of college, i joined one of the java conferences held by an IT institute near our school, I went and later on, i ended up taking their scholarship exam for a java crash course. It was a blast. I can not imagine myself now if i never gave java a chance. I'm not a java programmer whatsoever( because when i had my "job-hunting", i looked for companies that will get me to jump-start my career, there was no "java hiring companies" that time.. at least in our city) , my "training-ground" company offered the ms-language that resembles java, it went out good, and now i'm learning more. I guess to those of you, students or not , who thinks that the "language" or "java" is the problem, think again, ask yourself, Is it? or Is it i?.. Remember, the computer doesn't have brain, you do. :) I owe my current job (now) to my interest in learning java before. I must admit, i’m quite a late bloomer. The first programming language i learned in school was pascal, and that was the time i first realized what i wanted .But when i went to college, i lost all that interest. It isn’t because how the programming subjects were taught, or how the instructors look like (laughs), but because i didn’t spend most of my time hoaning my interest and so it died.At the later part of college, i joined one of the java conferences held by an IT institute near our school, I went and later on, i ended up taking their scholarship exam for a java crash course. It was a blast.
I can not imagine myself now if i never gave java a chance. I’m not a java programmer whatsoever( because when i had my “job-hunting”, i looked for companies that will get me to jump-start my career, there was no “java hiring companies” that time.. at least in our city) , my “training-ground” company offered the ms-language that resembles
java, it went out good, and now i’m learning more.
I guess to those of you, students or not , who thinks that the “language” or “java” is the problem, think again, ask yourself, Is it? or Is it i?.. Remember, the computer doesn’t have brain, you do. :)

]]> By: Eric DeLabar http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-632 Eric DeLabar Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:19:23 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-632 First let me say that I love Java, I'm a professional Java developer, so I live it every day. I also learned Java as my first language (well, if you don't count self-taught qbasic and vb). However, I think Java does a little too much hand-holding to really learn how to program. They should teach as many programming languages in school as physically possible in the time frame. Definitely ASM, Lisp/Scheme are also great, some scripting languages to learn to deal with a lack of strictly defined rules, and a little low-level C to see what it's like to have the programming power to seriously mess up a PC. Beyond that, we need a good 100-level course to weed out the people who don't have the passion to be an asset to this industry. First let me say that I love Java, I’m a professional Java developer, so I live it every day. I also learned Java as my first language (well, if you don’t count self-taught qbasic and vb). However, I think Java does a little too much hand-holding to really learn how to program. They should teach as many programming languages in school as physically possible in the time frame. Definitely ASM, Lisp/Scheme are also great, some scripting languages to learn to deal with a lack of strictly defined rules, and a little low-level C to see what it’s like to have the programming power to seriously mess up a PC. Beyond that, we need a good 100-level course to weed out the people who don’t have the passion to be an asset to this industry.

]]> By: cowlibob http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-631 cowlibob Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:00:05 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-631 People learn from more than their teacher. People learn from each other. The best experience I got from University was doing group projects and learning from other people. Each person has a different way of learning and I found this way more productive way to learn. The only way to learn if your up to speed with your peers is to develop with them. This usually stops bad habits because the programmer is usually mocked until they start adopting a better practice. This works the same at my job. People learn from more than their teacher. People learn from each other. The best experience I got from University was doing group projects and learning from other people. Each person has a different way of learning and I found this way more productive way to learn. The only way to learn if your up to speed with your peers is to develop with them. This usually stops bad habits because the programmer is usually mocked until they start adopting a better practice. This works the same at my job.

]]> By: deltawing1 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-630 deltawing1 Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:55:44 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-630 Doolwind- I just wanted to clarify something -- in my post I talked only about what was important to *me* I'm sure that for many others a firm grounding in maths along with passion are far more important than the stuff I talked about :) Again, great article! Doolwind-

I just wanted to clarify something — in my post I talked only about what was important to *me*

I’m sure that for many others a firm grounding in maths along with passion are far more important than the stuff I talked about :)

Again, great article!

]]> By: deltawing1 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-629 deltawing1 Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:45:49 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-629 EDIT: Sorry! I accidently presssed Submit before finishing the post. Anyway I got a tad carried away with this post ... sorry lol. As you can see I like writing! ----------------------------------------- Hey, great post! Although I need to disagree a bit :-) While student passion and math are somewhat important, for many people it takes more than that. Back in high school I was feverishly passionate about programming. As I entered University and began doing incredibly poorly at programming subjects, I became quite depressed about it, and hugely frustrated, but I never lost that passion and yet continued to do poorly. Passion alone wasn't enough for me to catch up with my peers -- apparently I had fallen through the proverbial crack and had started to perform extremely poorly, a huge contrast from my high school days. As my CSSE (Computer Science and Software Engineering) course progressed, I made a massive effort to turn things around. What I figured out was that my problem had absolutely nothing to do with my interest and passion, nor did it have anything to do with me being crap at maths. It had *everything* to do with my learning skills and time management. Now, learning is MY responsibility, but I think it's necessary to place at least some blame on the University's teaching methods. One of the problems is that teachers at University don't teach you HOW to learn. They give you an assignment and you spend a huge amount of time doing it. You do it all wrong and you hand it. The teacher sometimes gives feedback of WHERE you went wrong. The feedback told me WHAT criteria I hadn't fulfilled, but never told me WHY something was wrong and HOW I should have done it. So, the feedback was utterly useless. I had passion, and I had the best intentions and attitudes towards learning; but despite that, I simply didn't know HOW to learn, and no teachers would give advice about it! For me, the issue has nothing to do with passion or maths. It has to do with learning skills. Unfortunately University teachers (in computer science courses anyway) tend to teach objectively and totally ignore the fact that different students have different learning styles. After discovering the root of the problem and addressing it, I began seeing increases in my performance. I'm going to graduate with a double degree soon! :) By the way, I found a very interesting ECOOP paper. If you didn't read my comment, at least read this! It's about objective vs. constructive teaching methods. You can download it in PDF or DOC format at the bottom of the page. http://www.strath.ac.uk/cis/cisnews/improvingthementalmodelsheldbynoviceprogrammers/ EDIT: Sorry! I accidently presssed Submit before finishing the post. Anyway I got a tad carried away with this post … sorry lol. As you can see I like writing!

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Hey, great post! Although I need to disagree a bit :-)

While student passion and math are somewhat important, for many people it takes more than that. Back in high school I was feverishly passionate about programming. As I entered University and began doing incredibly poorly at programming subjects, I became quite depressed about it, and hugely frustrated, but I never lost that passion and yet continued to do poorly.

Passion alone wasn’t enough for me to catch up with my peers — apparently I had fallen through the proverbial crack and had started to perform extremely poorly, a huge contrast from my high school days.

As my CSSE (Computer Science and Software Engineering) course progressed, I made a massive effort to turn things around. What I figured out was that my problem had absolutely nothing to do with my interest and passion, nor did it have anything to do with me being crap at maths. It had *everything* to do with my learning skills and time management.

Now, learning is MY responsibility, but I think it’s necessary to place at least some blame on the University’s teaching methods. One of the problems is that teachers at University don’t teach you HOW to learn. They give you an assignment and you spend a huge amount of time doing it. You do it all wrong and you hand it. The teacher sometimes gives feedback of WHERE you went wrong. The feedback told me WHAT criteria I hadn’t fulfilled, but never told me WHY something was wrong and HOW I should have done it. So, the feedback was utterly useless.

I had passion, and I had the best intentions and attitudes towards learning; but despite that, I simply didn’t know HOW to learn, and no teachers would give advice about it!

For me, the issue has nothing to do with passion or maths. It has to do with learning skills. Unfortunately University teachers (in computer science courses anyway) tend to teach objectively and totally ignore the fact that different students have different learning styles.

After discovering the root of the problem and addressing it, I began seeing increases in my performance. I’m going to graduate with a double degree soon! :)

By the way, I found a very interesting ECOOP paper. If you didn’t read my comment, at least read this! It’s about objective vs. constructive teaching methods. You can download it in PDF or DOC format at the bottom of the page.
http://www.strath.ac.uk/cis/cisnews/improvingthementalmodelsheldbynoviceprogrammers/

]]> By: Doolwind http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-628 Doolwind Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:09:22 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-628 deltawing1- Perhaps self-created passion isn't as important as teacher-guided passion? I always equated the two as being equal however you raise an interesting point that perhaps the self-created passion just isn't enough. I know of a few programmers who taught themselves all they knew, passionately, and ended up with bad habits and not being great programmers. Certainly passion alone won't help you to catch up, however combined with some good education I think the majority of ingredients are present to create a great programmer. deltawing1-

Perhaps self-created passion isn’t as important as teacher-guided passion? I always equated the two as being equal however you raise an interesting point that perhaps the self-created passion just isn’t enough. I know of a few programmers who taught themselves all they knew, passionately, and ended up with bad habits and not being great programmers.

Certainly passion alone won’t help you to catch up, however combined with some good education I think the majority of ingredients are present to create a great programmer.

]]> By: Doolwind http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-627 Doolwind Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:05:58 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-627 J- True, not all the blame is on the teachers, however I think they have more to blame than both Java and students lack of interest combined. If a student doesn't want to learn then that isn't the issue. Courses should weed these people out and stop them from graduating so they can move on to other, simpler careers. J-

True, not all the blame is on the teachers, however I think they have more to blame than both Java and students lack of interest combined. If a student doesn’t want to learn then that isn’t the issue. Courses should weed these people out and stop them from graduating so they can move on to other, simpler careers.

]]> By: Doolwind http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-626 Doolwind Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:04:31 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-626 Daniel- You're right that a poor teacher can ruin any subject. This is actually a dangerous combination with impressionable minds. I would love to start teaching kids to program as soon as possible as I believe that filling the world with great programmers will drive humanity forward. Daniel-

You’re right that a poor teacher can ruin any subject. This is actually a dangerous combination with impressionable minds. I would love to start teaching kids to program as soon as possible as I believe that filling the world with great programmers will drive humanity forward.

]]> By: Doolwind http://www.doolwind.com/blog/java-isnt-the-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-625 Doolwind Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:02:57 +0000 http://www.doolwind.com/blog/?p=94#comment-625 Greg- I agree with all your points. I think the core problem here is that teaching a single style of development (eg OOP) is often a bad thing. Students should be taught the full suite of programming tools as well as in which situations each should be used. I gain great value from working with "old school" programmer such as yourself that didn't have OOP crammed down their throats early on in the programming life. After completing university I could have been mistaken for thinking it was the <b>only</b> way to code. Greg-
I agree with all your points. I think the core problem here is that teaching a single style of development (eg OOP) is often a bad thing. Students should be taught the full suite of programming tools as well as in which situations each should be used.

I gain great value from working with “old school” programmer such as yourself that didn’t have OOP crammed down their throats early on in the programming life. After completing university I could have been mistaken for thinking it was the only way to code.

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